They stood before the throne. Revelation 7:9:
Part 1-2:
Someone who believes in the post-tribulation rapture, and not the pre-tribulation wrote to me. Their concerns were about the verses found in Revelation 7:9, where a great multitude was seen by John standing before the throne of the Father, and before the Lamb.
I wrote the following remarks to him, “I see your using the Greek of the Aleph, A. text. As you know, there is a difference between the A. B. Vatican manuscripts, = N.I.V. and the received text of the K.J.V.”
Reader wrote, “These are the ones coming OUT OF THE affliction (tribulation) the great”. The A. text. in English, N.I.V. reads, “These are those who have come OUT OF THE great tribulation.” Note definite article, “The.”
Phil replied, “I use the Received text of K.J.V. English is, “These are they which CAME OUT OF great tribulation.” Came or come, implying they have just come. So did they come out of, “The,” great tribulation, as you wrote, or did they, “Come OUT OF great tribulation?”
Reader wrote, “One of the first things to note here is that the Present Participle should be understood in its adjectival sense, describing those who have come. Compare with verse 9, the multitude is “standing” before the throne. This “standing” is the Perfect Participle form, indicating completed action that continues, and so signifies the action of “coming” is likewise completed. “Coming out of” is based on a common meaning of EK, a Greek preposition of motion, moving from the inside to the outside.”
Phil replies, I agree with your assessment, but here is further information on the word STOOD, as in, “Stood before the throne.”
Stood in the Greek is, histemi. This standing is in the plu-per-fect. The tense which points back to an action or event that took place previous to another past action, or event. So what was that event? These who were standing before the throne came out of great tribulation, and whose souls are now waiting under the altar in heaven.
Did these who were standing before the throne come OUT OF THE great tribulation?” meaning the seven years of tribulation? Make note definite article, as it is rendered in the A. and B. text, N.I.V., or is it as in the Received text, of K.J.V? “These are they which came (come) OUT OF great tribulation,” and are still coming out of tribulation until the number is filled?
So where did they just come from? Rev.6:9, “Under the altar,” and what is the tribulation that is being spoken of?
Is, “come out of,” implying that these martyred could have, as in recently come from tribulation? Or is it the tribulation that Christians have been subject to over the centuries?
We need to ask the question, “Is time relevant after we die?”
Are these people standing before the throne in Rev.7:9, having come out of great tribulation Rev.7:14, the same people John saw in,
Revelation 6:9? John writes, “I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held.”
John saw the souls of Christians who had been martyred crying for vengeance, these having come from the many persecution which have occurred over the centuries; persecutions by the Romans, Turks, Muslims, Germans, Russia etc. I would say each of these events could be called a time of great tribulation for Christians who were murdered for their faith.
The souls John saw that had been slain were under the altar. What’s is this all about? In the O.T. times, the sacrificed blood of the victims was poured at the bottom, or under the altar.
It appears that the slain for Christ’s sake are symbolically represented as under the altar in heaven, not their (literal) bodies, but their souls. Scriptures tell us that the life is in the blood, and blood is represented as crying for vengeance, Gen.4:10, “The voice of thy brother’s (Abel’s) blood crieth unto me from the ground.”
These souls under the altar cried with a loud voice, saying,
“How long, O Lord —?” They were told to rest for a short while until their fellow servants should be killed as they were.” When the number is filled, we will have, “A great multitude, which no man could number.”
Christ is the antitype, as the altar that John sees in heaven, is the type. The altar always sanctifies the gift, this is what is acceptable to the Father. On earth, the altar was not in the sanctuary, but outside. Christ physical sacrifice and the figurative sacrifice of the martyred took place not in the heavenly sanctuary but on earth.
To conclude, the blood of these who were slain for the word, cries out from the earth, (under the altar) under the cross of Christ, where they have virtually been sacrificed. These souls of the martyred are now under Jesus Christ in His presence, shut up unto him. These are waiting for His return, when the dead shall be raised first, and those who are alive, shall meet the Lord in the air.
Part 2:
This question concerns, Revelation 6:9, “I (John) saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, Holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Interesting question to God, by those who were martyred over the centuries for the testimony of Jesus Christ!
Let’s begin with Abel, pre-flood martyr, move on to Stephen, a post Christ martyr, Eusebius, who was burned alive because he would not deny Jesus Christ, and this continues today.
Genesis 4:9-10, Soon after Cain had killed his brother Abel, the Lord questions Cain as to the whereabouts of Abel. The Lord goes on to ask, “What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.” I will expand on this in my next post.
We have the words of Stephen moments before he died,
Acts 7:55, Stephen sees, “The glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Verse 59, “They stoned Stephen, (he) calling upon God, and saying Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Verse 60, Stephen cries out to God, “Lay not this sin to their charge, and when he had said this, he fell asleep.”
Now Abel, Stephen, Eusebius, and all those who gave their lives for the witness, and testimony of Jesus Christ over the centuries, sacrificed their physical bodies, and moments after their death, they gave their soul, and spirit to Jesus Christ. I feel this multitude of martyrs, past, present and future are those whose souls are under the altar, crying for justice, Revelation 9-10.
Until the day of the rapture of the church, it can be said that all the dead have fallen asleep. Now if it was possible, and we were able to ask Abel, Stephen, Eusebius, or any other martyr that is standing before the throne of God in,
Revelation 7:9, “How much time do you feel has passed since you have died?” What do you think they would reply? Would Stephen say, 1900 years, or would he say, “moment’s ago?”
Does time even matter? Better yet, upon our death, does time even exist? I say no, it’s no different than falling asleep. Except for looking at a clock before we go to bed, fall asleep, wake up, and glance at the clock, it seem like only moments have passed between the two events. What’s my point?
Revelation 7:14, “Those who are standing before God’s throne, compared with,
Revelation 7:9, “They which came out of great tribulation,” What is meant by, “They which (had just) come out of great tribulation?” Is it the tribulation of murdered Christian’s over the centuries, or those killed during the seven years of tribulation?
I understand it to be the first. For us who are alive it’s been 1900 years since Stephen’s death, but to him, if we were able to ask him it would seem like moments ago.
Part 3:
Because the K.J.V. translators chose not to use the definite article “The,” in Revelation 7:14, but, “of,” as in, “Came out of great tribulation,” I had to ask myself why? I do not feel that this was a random exchange of words. I trust this version completely.
When the Greek definite article, “The” is combined with a noun, originally a demonstrative, or pointing out a person, or a thing being referred to, and distinguishing it from another of the same kind, but having its demonstrative power gradually softened down so as simply to mark an object as definite, or specific. It corresponds in many respects to the English “the,” though it is sometimes used where we still say, “this,” and at times when we employ no article, and sometimes, even where we put the indefinite a, or an.
Usually the articles “the, this, that,” is omitted where the English omits it. The usage of languages varies much in respect to their articles; and in Greek especially, the usage seems in many cases never to have become fixed, but to have been left to the taste and judgment of the writers.
Further, to the writers of the N.T. the use of the Hebrew article was vernacular, meaning to use a language, or dialect native to the region, rather than for the literary culture, or a foreign language. This understanding, and usage, would impart a shade of coloring to the mode, and style of the writers and interpreters use of the article.
With that said, the word tribulation is used in two ways. First as coming from the enemies of the church, and secondly as a judgment from God. For tribulation coming from the enemies of the church, see the following.
Revelation 7:14, “They which came out of great tribulation,”
This would imply that the afflictions, pressure, distress, and tribulation would come by way of evil men. Tribulation and trials by degree, brought upon Christians over the centuries. Varying degrees of tribulation can start with a warning, then a fine, or penalty, leading to jail, torture, and finally death. I suppose any of the above could be considered as being great tribulation to anyone who suffered jail, torture, and death.
My reasoning is simple; a person can die but once, the only difference is how that person dies. There is tribulation by torture that leads to death, and in my thinking would fall under, “Great tribulation.” If it does occur to a person would it make any difference if it happened a week ago, or 500, 1000, or 2000 years ago? No, suffering is suffering, and dead is dead!
Muslims today are beginning to torture, and kill Christians throughout the world in numbers unheard of in the past, many by the cruelest means. Men, women, and children herded into their church building, the doors locked, and the building set afire, = “Great tribulation.”
Let’s consider the tribulation that the Bible speaks of coming from the ENEMIES of the church. Compare;
John 16:33, “In the world ye (the disciples) shall have tribulation.”
Romans 5:3, “We (Paul is speaking to the believers in Rome) glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience.”
2 Thessalonians 1:6, “God to recompense (repay) tribulation to them that trouble you.”
Compare with;
The tribulation coming to those by way of punishment from God: When Jesus was speaking to the apostles on the Mt. of Olives, the church did not exist, and was yet unknown to the apostles. What Jesus spoke in Matt.24, was for the sake of the Jews and not the Gentiles, nor for the church.
Matthew 24:21, Jesus is answering questions asked by the apostles, Matt.24:1-2-3. Their questions concerned the Temple buildings, the Jews, and the land. First Jesus tells them that their Temple will be destroyed, than what the signs of His return would be to the Jews; when He will execute His judgment upon the Jews, and finally when the end will come.
We see this form of terminology used in the O.T. concerning tribulation, by way of punishment.
Judges 10:14, the LORD said unto the disobedient Jews, “Go and cry unto the (foreign) gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation.”
In the N.T.
Matthew 24:21-29, “Immediately after the tribulation (by God on the Jewish people) of those days, —.”
Romans 2:9, “Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile.”
2 Thessalonians 1:6, to the church in Thessalonia, Paul writes, “It is a righteous thing with God to recompense (repay) tribulation to them that trouble you.”
So why did the interpreters of the K.J.V. insert, “Of,” in Revelation 7:14? My guess is, they being led by the Holy Spirit, as to avoid confusion, especially in these last days, understanding that all the shed blood (those who died, or will die) of every Christian, all those who have suffered, and those who will suffer in the future for the faith, will be numbered with the souls of them who cry out for vengeance under the altar, in Revelation 6:9.
If written with the article, “The,” this could lead to grave misunderstandings, and confusion. Some have applied this tribulation in Revelation 7:14 only to those killed in the 7 years, or Daniel’s 70th week. This tribulation spoken of in Revelation 7:14, speaks of all, past, present, and future saints who have given their lives to Jesus Christ. It has come from and continues to come to Christians from the enemies of God.
Then the great multitude that no man could number, standing before the throne of God, in Revelation 7:14, would include all those that were slain for the word of God seen under the altar by John in Revelation 6:9, they being O.T. and N.T., saints, all having washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.
Phillip LaSpino www.seekfirstwisdom.com