A reader wrote the following concerning the Trinity.
There is a misunderstanding, and a problem with the way the Trinity doctrine is taught. A reason is, it robs Jesus of the Glory that is rightfully due Him. Trinitarians always claim that Jesus is the 2nd person in the trinity. I thought our Lord said that He Himself was the First and the Last. So the math simply does not add up.
Secondly, I have had many people say to me when witnessing to them that “Jesus is not God, He is the Son Of God!” Of course Jesus is the Son of God, but He is also The God of the Old Testament, The Father in the Flesh. It’s the churches fault that there are some people out there who have this mindset because they confuse “the simplicity that is in Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:3) by peddling a trinity instead of just saying that “God was manifest in the flesh”. (1 Timothy 3:16)
The writer posted 60 questions, with his answers for why he believes the way he does.
Phil wrote, “If I can debunk one of your questions, then I can assume the remainder would are incorrect. This is how it works in a court of law. If you can show that a witness lied in one part of their testimony, the court will throw out the rest of the testimony. Here goes.
In the German version of the King James Bible, the word Trinity is used. Check it out!
In Latin it means the union of three person’s in one Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is quoted from my 1851 and 1860 Webster’s dictionary. I have the originals. If you know more about the English language then Daniel Webster let me know, if not let it go.
Isa.48:16, Jehovah is speaking, “Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: from the time that it was, there am I: AND NOW THE LORD GOD (THE FATHER) and HIS HOLY SPIRIT HATH SENT ME.” Three people, count them, Jehovah (Jesus) speaking, the Father and the Holy Spirit have sent Him. 1-2-3. Drop it.
Now don’t claim Isaiah is speaking! The context tells us the truth of the matter. Jehovah (Jesus) is speaking, stating that the Father and the Holy Spirit have sent Him.
Why is it you cannot accept the fact that Jesus is the God of the creation, and Lord over the church, and He will also be your judge. Stop your nonsense about who He is, and what He did.
Thomas is speaking to the Lord after His resurrection John 20:28, He said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God.” To say that Thomas was speaking about the Father is to twist and break every rule of construction. My Lord and my God is directed to Jesus alone, the text is clear.
John 1:1, “The Word was God.
When you have two or more nouns in a sentence, as, “the Word was God,” with one definite article, both nouns pick up the definite article, so in the Greek it would read, “The Word was The God.” This is sharps rule on definite articles. Attached to the older debate, I attached the following.
Phil Responded. Concerning your article, “Is the Trinity a Biblical doctrine?”
Let’s start by giving a clearer meaning to the word Trinity.
Trinity: This comes from Webster’s Third New Int. Dictionary and 7 language dictionary. It is the union of three persons or hypotheses (as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit) in one godhead so that all the three are one God as to substance but three persons or hypotheses as to individuality: the triune God. So what is “hypotheses?”
Hypotheses Webster, Third N.T. Dictionary means, In the original Nicene (325 A.D) use: the essence or substance of the Triune Godhead called also “ousia.”
Trinity: from Websters 1851 Dictionary. Latin, trinitas; tres and unus, unitas, one, unity. In Theology, the union of three persons in one Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Hypotheses, This definition comes from Web.1851 dictionary. It comes from the Greek, “to stand.” Properly subsistence or substance, hence it is used to denote distinct substance, of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the Godhead, called by the Greek Christians three hypotheses. The Latin’s more generally used, “persona” to express the sense of hypothesis, and this is the modern practice. We say the Godhead consists of three persons. (when they say modern practice, this was in 1851.)
The people who wrote these books had a handle on the languages and the words used, therefore we must trust the dictionaries.
What I believe we need to do is take one step back, and examine what we have. I was going over your most recent comments, and would like to give you an idea why I have been so aggressive in my approach toward you. I notice that you have quoted the doctrines of particular writers or groups that do not agree with the doctrine of the Trinity.
I have no problem with that!
I also understand that we ALL can be swayed one way or another by the things we read and hear. To avoid this, I personally will do my own investigation concerning any particular subject of Scripture. By doing this I have learned how to avoid taking sides and/or being prejudice against doctrines, people, groups of people, or any particular way of thinking.
After reading the 60 questions you posted in your article, and, IF you are in agreement with them I see that you believe that the Father manifests himself as Jesus, and (maybe also the Holy Spirit:) that Jesus is the Father, and (maybe the Holy Spirit:) and (maybe) the Holy Spirit is Jesus and the Father. In other words the Father takes on the other two forms when needed. Is that correct? If not then what are you talking about?
As an ex-marine, I understand chain of command; one God, three person’s; the Father’s will, the Son speaks, and the Holy Spirit moves on these things, in this, they are referred to as “ONE.” See meaning of Trinity and hypothesis above.
As a marine we worked as one unit. I was a squad leader in a mortar outfit. I had 8 men in my squad. In the platoon their were 8 mortars. All had one purpose, one goal. That was to destroy the enemy position. As a squad leader the 8 of us worked as one, as a platoon, all 8 guns worked as one unit, also for one purpose. So you can say that we were ONE. This is what the word one means when speaking of, “one God.”
I always applied this lesson to the idea of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The will of the Father is to prove Satan a liar, and to destroy sin forever. To accomplish this He sent His Son, at first as the Light of the world, Gen.1, who was to be the Life of the world John 1:4. And God (Jesus the Word of God) spoke, and the creation came into being.
Jesus has been with His Father from all eternity. The Father is also from all eternity. Do I understand what it means not to have a beginning, not to be born or created? NO! But I believe it because the Bible said it. Faith is more important to me, then me having a full understanding of the things of God. It would be nice, but I don’t possess it.
Two worlds:
The spirit world of God, and the created material world of God. Jesus rules over the created things of heaven, earth, and sea, this includes all mankind. He is called God, because the word God implies Creator, and Supreme over all of the creation. So as the Creator (God) He rules and reigns over it, to the glory of His Father who sent Him. His proper name is Jesus, Matthew 25. and not God or Jehovah, or El. or Yahwah, or Adoni, or I Am, or Elohim.
Here we see a chain of command concerning the created things of God. To mankind, Jesus is God because He created us. The first thing Adam saw was His Creator, Jesus, the Word of God, the Light and life of his world.
Now, other side wrote, ” First of all, let me explain why I have a problem with the way the Trinity doctrine is taught. One reason is that it has a tendency to rob Jesus of Glory that is rightfully due to Him. Trinitarians always claim, etc. etc.
Phil. wrote.
1. In my way of thinking, if Jesus,
Philippians 2:6, “Thought it not robbery to be equal with God (the Father,)” what concern is it of ours?
2. Jesus also said, “When you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” This implies equality with the Father. Or He is deceiving us. He also said, “I and my Father are one.” This is also a statement of equality with the Father. Jesus said, “All things that the Father hath are mine.” The whole issue seems to be clear. I don’t know if it can be made any clearer.
3. In the creation, God said, “Let us make man in our image and likeness.” This implies that the Father and Son have the same image and likeness, as in, “making man in THEIR image.)” This is supported by,
4. Hebrews 1:3, It is said of Jesus, “Who being the brightness of His (the Father’s) glory, and the express image of His (the Father’s) person,” and it is Jesus who is, “upholding all things by the word of His power.”
I ask; who can be like God, no-one except He who is the brightness of the Father’s glory. Think of that, the glory of the Father is possessed by the Son. This to me is equality in glory. And, Do I understand this fully? No, but I believe it.
The Express Image of the Father’s person! “Express image;” As an engraver would cut or stamp out a character, as in a letter or mark, the Father’s brightness, glory and image are possessed by His glorious Son, Jesus Christ. He is the counterpart of the Father’s essence or being, therefore concerning the creation, equality!
Again I ask you, after I read and study these verses, should I just brush them aside, or ignore them? To me what they spell out is equality, plain, clear and simple!
There are many other verses to consider. But if we were to just consider the above, what am I to do with them, throw them out? or not consider them at all? Do you understand my meaning? We are to approach the Scriptures as a child, and let the Holy Spirit work in our spirit. Greater understanding will come in time: But to doubt, or deny can be dangerous to our eternal life.
Apposing side wrote, “Trinitarians always claim,”
Phil wrote, I never called myself a, “Trinitarian.” My problem may be with your wording. You make it sound as if we are wrong, a minority, foolish in our understanding, and deceived.
What I believe is, there are three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit that have an EQUAL HAND in dealing with the affairs of mankind, the devil and his demons. This is the world I live in. Three persons, so Triune (Latin) best describes it, giving it clarity of understanding, so this would be correct.
What goes on in the Spirit world is over my head, and everyone else’s. I don’t profess to know about God’s spiritual world, but if I did, it would only be guesswork at best. My concern is what we are told in Scripture, concerning this material world, my salvation, and the few bits and pieces God has revealed to us concerning the invisible spirit world.
What I do understand is, the Father rules from His throne in heaven. Jesus Christ has been given the power and authority over this MATERIAL creation, which was created by Him, and for Him.
The Holy Spirit is He who was given to Jesus by the Father, and Jesus sent Him to the Christian church. He is the ambassador, the vanguard, protector, guide, instructor, and distributor of gifts.
Also, to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit would be to condemn yourself to the lake of fire, no forgiveness. He has to be a separate entity. Why? to blaspheme against Jesus or the Father, will be forgiven, but to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.
The above in my view seems to be clear enough.
Apposing side wrote, “Peddling a Trinity instead of just saying that “God was manifest in the flesh”. (1 Timothy 3:16)”
Phil wrote, “peddling,” means, To travel house to house with wares for sale. To sell or offer for sale from place to place usually in small quantities, A Hawk.
You degrade and mock those who are honest in their approach to the Scriptures. So I will go on the offence with you if you call me, my brothers and sisters hucksters. I love Jesus Christ and His wonderful message for us. I resent being called a peddler of God’s word.
Now you post 60 questions, with answers following. Yet you post a Disclaimer:
Apposing side wrote, “While this was posted originally by a member of the United Pentecostal Church, I myself do not belong to this denomination or any denomination for that matter. Not even the Non-denominational denomination or the JW’s!”
Phil wrote, “You did not say if the answers given were yours or not? Now I ask if you post something, and then post a disclaimer, why post it at all, it appears you do agree with what you posted!
My concern is not for myself but for the many who are new to the Scriptures. Your 60 questions can cause doubt. Example;
Apposing side wrote,
question 8 of your 60 questions. Has the Christian only one Heavenly Father? Yes. Matthew 23:9.
Matt.8:29, “for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
I say your wrong, read the article I posted, “Who is our Father in Heaven?”
Phil. wrote.
Isaiah 9:6 speaks of a child that was to come, 700 years future. When He arrives, one of His titles and offices shall be, “the everlasting Father.” So, Jesus Christ was to be called, “The everlasting Father.” This carries the definite article “THE,” implying to believers, that He, Jesus is our only everlasting Father.”
Now the question is, Does Jesus have a Father? and is His Father on His throne in heaven? The answer is Yes! Jesus refers to His Father many times. One of the issues that I have with cult teaching is, they want to bypass Jesus in order to get to His Father.
How do they attempt to do this? There are two ways, first they will say the Father is Jesus and Jesus is the Father. Secondly they will teach that Jesus is also a created being, making Him, “a god.”
Most cults have a salvation by works ethic. Jesus said,
John 14:6, “Jesus said — no man cometh unto the Father but by me.”
By-passing is not allowed. If you attempt to by-pass Jesus, you yourself will be left on the outside looking in.
Understanding what the word Father means is important. The title of Father has many offices built into it. Some are,
1. The Creator, Colossians 1:16, “By Him (Jesus) were all things created.”
2. A Preserver, or to watch over, to defend, to preserve, from danger to keep and preserve as in the body of believers, His covenant, etc.
3. The Governor, of all men and things, “Isaiah 9:6, “His (Jesus) name shall be called, — Counselor,” means to care for and protects.
4. Father also implies one who watches with paternal love and care; In N.T. God is called Father, as to
The Jews,
1. John 8:41, “we have one Father, even God,” with ver. 42, Jesus said, “if God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God (My Father,)”
2 Corinthians 6:17-18, “I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you,” compared with,
John 11:51-52, “he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; and not for that nation only, but that also He should gather together in one the children of God.” Compared with,
Matthew 23:37, Jesus said, “I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not.”
Because Jesus is the God of the O.T. see,
Jeremiah 31:9, Speaking of Jesus, “for I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn.”
Isaiah 63:16, “Doubtless thou art our Father,”
Isaiah 64:8. “Now O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.” With,
John 1:3, speaking of Jesus, “All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.” He is the potter, we are the clay. Get it.
The Father is all of the above, as is the Son, and is the Holy Spirit! They cannot lie, murder, covet, or deceive, and they all save.
So, Believe by Faith all that is written in the word, and be saved.
I will soon post all the Titles, Names and offices of the Holy Spirit.
Phillip LaSpino
Apposing side wrote, Phil,
Thank you for that lengthy rebuttal. I see you are very passionate in what you believe, and I respect you for it. I also see that you have spent countless hours of diligent study. I am sorry if you see the Oneness doctrine that I am leaning towards heretical, but I see it to be more in line with scripture at this point. I’m not an old man “stuck in my ways” and someone who has closed his ears to anything contrary to what I believe. If the Holy Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ convicts me otherwise with any doctrine I believe, my most sincere prayer is that he will reprove me and show me my error.
I don’t know if you feel likewise, but I consider you a brother in Him.
Quote:
You degrade and mock those who are honest in their approach to the Scriptures. So I will go on the offence with you if you call me, my brothers and sisters hucksters. I love Jesus Christ, and His wonderful message for us. I resent being called a peddler of God’s word.
I also apoligize for using the term “peddle”. I should have thought my response out a little more before i posted.
Apposing side.
I respect your position! I will continue to study, ask, investigate, and draw upon the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Heresy, not sure if I would call it that. I know your heart is in the right place. Where you study and get your info from may be another question. Expand your vision. Examine every aspect of this subject with an open mind, in this, always set aside any pre-conceived ideas so as not to be tainted, or swayed in your thinking. This always leaves room for new info to come into your possession. Thanks,
Phillip Laspino www.seekfirstwisdom.com