Trinity Debate 1:
A reader wrote the following four questions.
I have taken the following four questions you asked and will attempt to give you the correct answers through and by the Scriptures.
Question 1.
Reader wrote, “Phil. said that “in the beginning, the Father sent the Holy Spirit and His Son to do His will”. But I thought they were co-equal in power & authority. If they are co-equal, one cannot command another to do anything, right?”
Phil replied, “Right, But why would you think it was a command? This was not a command on the part of the Father to sent His Son and the Holy Spirit. This was a plan, a partnership, established by the three to deal with Lucifer and the fallen angels. Everyone seems to forget about Lucifer’s fall with a third of the angels following him to this baron earth.
The word “Darkness,” in Genesis 1:2, means vile, base, a hissing, etc. This darkness ruled over the baron earth at this point because the Light of the World (Jesus) had not arrived as of yet. But He soon would. And where there is light, there is no darkness.
Do you recall the meaning of the word “One,” we had discussed? It meaning one mind, one purpose, one goal. God’s justice will prevail over these fallen spirit creatures who had left their positions in heaven.” They sinned against God, as did man soon after, and in both cases will be dealt with.
Each person of the Godhead, including Michael, Gabriel, etc. have a part in this plan. It was the Father’s will from before the earth was. The Son spoke the creation into existence. He (the Word) left his position in heaven because of the love He has for His Father. Add to this the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit as He garnished the heavens, moving (meaning as to prepare) on the surface of the water as the Word of God spoke.
Reader wrote, Question 2, “You also said that “the Father rules from His throne in Heaven”. If they are co-equal, why does the Father rule over everything?”
Phil wrote, “We can find in several places of Scriptures where two ruled as one. These are lessons, examples for us. Joseph’s example will give us an excellent view into the things of heaven. Anti-type, type.
First lets look at Nabonidus the last true king of Babylon, and Belshazzar his son. Nabonidus established his son Belshazzar as co-regent (co-rulers) with him. Nabonidus had gone to Arabia in order to consolidate a weakened empire, while Belshazzar ruled in Babylon. Both were kings, both ruled at the same time.
Also we have the story of Joseph and Pharaoh: Joseph had recently interpreted Pharaoh’s dream. For this Pharaoh rewarded Joseph. Pharaoh the king of Egypt was going to give full authority to a stranger in Egypt, a Jew.
Genesis 41:40, Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Thou = (Joseph) shalt be over = (in charge of) my house (Egypt and all the conquered lands) and according unto thy = (your) word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.” The people were to obey the will of Joseph. Man is to obey the words of Jesus our Lord.
Matthew 17:5, “Behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him.” As Joseph’s voice was to be obeyed by the people, so also the Son of God.
Matthew 3:17, “Lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Joseph was give full authority over the whole of Pharaoh’s kingdom, just as Jesus was given full authority over the creation. Joseph authority ended at Pharaoh’s throne where he sat and ruled. Pharaoh loved Joseph, and trusted in him. In the throne of heaven is where the Father rules. Jesus is King, Lord and God, but He hears the voice of His Father, because of His Love for the Father. The Father would not command the Son to do something Jesus did not want to do.
John 14:28, Jesus said, “I go away, and come again unto you. — I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” Yet in,
John 14:9, Jesus speaks of the equality He has with the Father concerning the material world. “He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
Verse 10, “I am in the Father, and the Father in me?” This is the heavenly standard, position and condition of the Son to the Father. The sameness, the oneness of the Godhead. Also,
Philippians 2:6, “Jesus thought himself not as a thief (robber) to declare Himself equal to the Father.
Note in Revelation 22:1-3, we see one throne (singular) with the Father and the Lamb. Jesus ascended to the Father’s throne, and sat at the right hand of the Father. To sit at the right hand of the ONE in authority in the ancient cultures was to be given the seat of authority. This shows the supreme position of the Son of God with His Father.
Psalms 110:1, “The LORD = (the Father) said unto my = (David’s) Lord = (Jesus,) Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”
Joseph and Pharaoh are the anti-type. The Father and the Son are the type. The literal material creation was given to the Son of God, this was His inheritance. Only from the heavenly throne does the Father rule, as did Pharaoh. We hear the Fathers voice coming from heaven. He is always referred to as being in heaven throughout the N.T. in scores of verses.
Jesus was established as Lord over the whole of the MATERIAL creation.
Prov.8:23, “I = (Jesus) was set up = (anointed) from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.” Jesus was anointed, and the Father did the anointing.
Joseph was a foreigner in Egypt. yet he was set over all the land; sealed by Pharaoh with the ring from his hand, then Joseph was arrayed him in vestures of fine linen, and a gold chain was placed about his neck. The Egyptian people were commanded to honor Joseph just as they honored Pharaoh. No man was to raise a hand against Joseph. He was to be esteemed and respected by the people as Pharaoh’s equal.
Again we have the anti-type here. Jesus the type, considered Himself a stranger in the land. He is seen by John wearing a fine garment down to His feet, wearing a golden band. Jesus was sealed not by a ring as was Joseph, but by the Holy Spirit, and anointed by the Father.
Joseph rode in a second chariot of Pharaoh’s. Jesus will come from heaven on a white horse. The people were to bow to Joseph, as every knee will one day bow to Jesus. The idea of bowing a knee which is a Hebrew term, meaning to prostrate oneself, and signifies, “blessed father.”
Joseph was sent by Pharaoh to execute the plan of saving the people from certain death by starvation. Jesus came to seek and to save the lost. He came to save the people from a certain spiritual death of starvation. He is called the bread of life, that which comes down from heaven.
Joseph as prime minister was given a ring, containing the royal signet of Pharaoh. He was given the power and authority to rule over the whole kingdom of Egypt. Compare with,
Matthew 11:27, Jesus said, “All thing are delivered unto me of my Father:” Also,
John 16:15, “All things that the Father hath are mine:” Except in the throne of heaven. Yet He will rule equally with the Father in heaven. Jesus did say, “My kingdom is not of this earth.”
Question 3,
Reader wrote, “If there is only one throne in Heaven and the Father is sitting on it, where does the Son and the Holy Spirit sit? Surly they are not continually standing, they would get awful tired if they do.”
Phil wrote, “To sit at the right hand of the Father, is a metaphor, symbolism meaning Jesus has been fully invested with absolute dominion and power by His Father. Sitting at the right hand of the Father is a clear statement of Jesus deity.
For this reason the high priest torn his clothes in Matthew 26:65. The High Priests’ were commanded in the O.T. not to rent (tear) their clothes. Keep in mind, Jesus went to prepare a place for His bride. Only when the Father gives His O,K, will the Son return. This is in the hands of the Father. so also is the custom of a Jewish marriage. anti-type, type.
The 7 Spirits of God are before the throne, Revelation 4:5, Revelation 5:6.
So why can Jesus be called God?
Because It was He who spoke the material creation into being. This all to the glory of His Father, who then glorifies Him. When man sinned the LORD said,
Genesis 6:6, “It repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.” The creation was to the glory of the Father, man became tarnished as was Satan. Now both were going to be dealt with. The only difference was, man was going to have a Saviour. Their Creator God, would be manifest in the Flesh. Satan’s future has already been determined, the lake of fire.
John 1:5, Jesus said to His Father, “Now, O’Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Note. Glory which He had before the world was. This does not sound like an attribute of the Father.”
Reader wrote, “If the FATHER, SON, & HOLY SPIRIT are 3 separate, distinct persons, all 3 cannot be “ALMIGHTY”. Almighty means {Having Absolute Power}. Only one of them could be Almighty, which means they are not co-equal in power, right?”
Phil wrote, “Not so. Jesus Christ has been given all things. What He receives from the Father, no man can take from Him.
Matthew 28:18, Jesus said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” Question for you, How much Almightier can you get if all power is yours? Power over the creation, yet the Father is greater in heaven.
John 16:15, Jesus said, “All that the Father hath are mine.
If the Son is an eternal person, what happened to His body when He came to earth as a baby?
Do you believe that God is no longer reveling new truths to mankind?
Why do Christians only worship God the Son? Shouldn’t we also worship God the Father and God the Holy Spirit? Which “person” gave the 10 commandments? One of the “persons” says that they are “A Jealous God”. If we don’t worship all 3, then one of them is jealous.
ELOHIM, THE NAME OF DIETY:
The Chaldean language is the adopted language of the Jews while in Babylon, it, and the Targums need special consideration, in that they are of the greatest importance in determining either the meaning of difficult words, or in a disputed passages.
The name of God occurs frequently, in both the singular and plural absolute, and in the constructive state, but never in the dual form. See,
1. Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created.”
2. Exodus 20:22, “And the LORD said to Moses.”
3. Psalms 22:1, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
4. Daniel 11:36, “the God of gods.”
It is believed that Elohim is a compound word. Rabbi Moses, Rabbi Bechai, agree. David Kimchi had no prejudices as did many of his colleagues.
The Almighty, omniscient, omnipresent, pure and perfect being, who preserves and governs all things. The self-existent, unoriginated, independent, and eternal Jehovah, who has produced all things. He who is, who was, and who will be,
Revelation 1:8, Jesus said, “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
Therefore He is a pure and perfect Spirit, without body, He cannot be seen by the eye of man, unless He is vailed in flesh. Neither can He be comprehended by a finite being, but is known and clearly distinguished by the creation itself.
Colossians 1:16, “For by Him = (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible etc.”
As all proper nouns in the Hebrew language are indicative of some prominent feature in the person or thing to which they are applied, the combination names point out distinctly the wonderful name of God. Both these nouns are used in all the various senses alluded to in numerous passages of Scripture, the Targums, and both of the Talmuds.
God is the first principle, the cause, the origin, the commencement of all things. Jerome observes, that there are ten prominent names of God in Scripture; three represent His existence, three denote His power, and three his government, and one the dignity and excellence of His nature and character. In the primary sense, Elohim refers to God, but in a secondary or lesser sense, it refers to angels, ministers, magistrates, and idols. Hence Judges, magistrates. We see this in,
Exodus 18:22, and Psalms 82:2. “His angels, or ministers shall judge.
1 Corinthians 6:3, “Know ye not that we shall judge angels?”
John 10:35, “If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken.”
Some say Yehowah means mercy, and Elohim means justice. Magistrates are called such, because they are bound to administer justice. Yehowah was the name by which Deity was known before Creation, and Elohim that by which He was designated after it, because every thing was created pure, good and just, like Himself. Therefore Scripture reads, Elohim created, not Yehowah.
Rabbi Solomon ben Joachi has the following remarkable words in his commentary on the sixth section of Leviticus; “Come and behold,” the wonderful mystery in the word Elohim, there are three degrees, and each degree distinct and by itself, and yet they are all one, and formed together in one, and are not divided not separated from each other.”
The best of the Samaritan and Chaldean versions of the Bible retain the noun in its original form. Samar. “a-la-him.” Here are three Gods of the same nature and magnitude, and united together by one long vowel, or essence, which make three in one, and one in three.
Reader wrote the following two comments.
1. “As I said in my last post, the WORD was not Jesus. The WORD was God. Jesus was the WORD made manifest.
2. Before He was born in Bethlehem of Judea, He was only pre-existent as a thought in the mind of Almighty God. Just like you and I was.
Phil wrote, “Let me tackle your first comment although both responses will draw the same conclusion.
Your interpretation or impression of the word, “WORD” is incorrect. The Greek for the noun, “Word,” as used in, John 1:1, has several meanings. You have taken one of its meaning and applied it to your case.
Don’t take the following wrong. I am making a statement of fact. Your position on this subject lines up with the Jehovah Witnesses in that you are attempting to go directly to the Father, because as you are implying the WORD as used in John 1 and Revelation 19:13, is one of the Father’s attributes clothed in flesh. This also with your thinking concerning the Holy Spirit.
In other words, the one riding on the white horse is only the Father’s attribute clothed in flesh sitting astride the horse, RIGHT? And the thing that walked with men 2000 years ago, was just an attribute of the Father covered with flesh, Right? And the Holy Spirit is just a power source coming from the Father, Right?
Also you deny the Deity (the person) called Jesus Christ which lines up with the Muslims, and the Mormons. Your not using the same words, but the conclusions are the same, that Jesus is not God. That He is but a manifestation of the Father’s word, clothed in flesh. These are the teachings of various cults or sects. Not meaning you, but your teaching, your application, your interpretation.
There are 10 Greek words for the English word, “Word.” All imply to speak, to reason, to utter, speech, etc. But the word we are interested has several meaning according to the Greek language. The Ancient Greek meaning as does the Hebrew follows.
The Bible is a Jewish book, written by Jews to the Jews. We Gentiles were grafted in, as in one who is adopted into a family. We need to always refer back to the original languages in which the Scriptures were written. They being Hebrew, Chaldean, and Greek. Also short phrases taken from a other languages.
Lets look at the first verse in,
Genesis. “In the beginning God.” God or Hebrew “Elohim.” The recognized ancient Jewish Rabbi’s all agree on the meaning of Elohim, (God) in, Genesis 1. It is plural, meaning there are three, Trinity, or three in one, each is distinct, joined together, not divided in thought, purpose, work, one from another, The following men, both Jew and Gentile agree. Some of the following are the cream of the crop when it comes to the ancient languages and theology.
Simeon ben Jochai, Aaben ezra, Rabbi Moses, Rabbi Bechai, Rabbi David Kimchi, Rabbi Levi ben Gershom, Rabbi Abraham, Rabbi Jarchi,Rabbi Solomon ben Joachi, as do Bishop Horne, Horsey, Rev. Messes. Romaine, Packhorse, Adam Clacks, and many others agree that the Word of God is a direct reference to the person considered the, Son of God.
We can also mention Erasmus, The great Greek scholar of the 15th and 16th. century. He being responsible for the Greek of the New Testament of the King James Bible. Also the 47 scholars who did the work and produced the King James version in 1609. All agree that the Logos is the person of Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity. Also,
The Masorites or sometimes called the Masoretic doctors. Theirs work regarded the fixing of the true reading by vowels and accents of the Hebrew language. They established their school about the 6th century. Any person today that would even begin an attempt to discredit or conclude that the above mentioned, the best of the best, were incorrect in their understanding of Greek and Hebrew would be a fool at best.
Jesus birth to Mary was not the origin of His personality, and in no way did His human birth make Him the Son of God. The way by which the “Son of God,” became flesh was effected by the Holy Spirit. Eph.4:10, “He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens.”
First you need to deal with the word He. “He” is a pronoun of the third person. Its a substitute for the third person, the verse is speaking of Christ, the Son of God.
The Son of God is a title of Jesus Christ, and refers exclusively to His co-eternal, and true position with the Father and the Holy Spirit in the eternal Triune Godhead.”
It is said that Jesus was made heir to all that the Father has. If this is true, and if as you say Jesus was the Father’s attributes wrapped in flesh, then the Father left to himself that which He already possessed? I don’t think so.
Word: Words: 3056. The Greek logos, or Word #3056
The Word, the Logos, in the writings of John 1, and Revelation 19:13, “His name is called the Word of God.” It here stands for the pre-existent nature of Christ, as that spiritual and divine nature spoken of in the Jewish writings before and about the time of Christ, under various names, such as,
Wisdom, Proverbs 8:12-22 sequel follows, “I Wisdom dwell, — counsel is mine — by me kings reign, — princes rule, — riches and honor are with me, — I lead in the way of righteousness,– the LORD possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His work of old.”
John 1:1-14. “In the beginning was the Word,” “the Word was God,” “The Word was made flesh.” 1 John 5:7, “there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.”
Daniel 7:13, “One like the Son of man = (Jesus,) —- came to the Ancient of days (the Father,” Compare with
Proverbs 30:4, “Word of Jehovah, in the Targuims for Heb, God.” This is not speaking of words spoken, but of the person of Jesus.
Genesis 20:3, “And God came to Abimelech.”
Isaiah 45:12, “I (the Jesus) have made the earth.” On this Divine Word, the Apostle sets out with affirming, John 1:1; and then also declares that this Word became flesh and was therefore the Messiah, verse 14.
Some scholars take, “the Word,” here for, “The Promised.” Others for, “The Teacher,” but both of these hypotheses are without support in the origin and construction of the word itself in the Greek language.
At the end of the article is the remainder of the meaning for this word.
There is no other meaning. To apply another meaning would be to misuse of the Greek and Hebrew. To change anything as mentioned above would be to add to the Scriptures.
A very important observation can be found in the office of the Son of God. The key text for understanding, “Son of God,” is,
John 5:18, “The Jews sought the more to kill Him (Jesus,) because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making himself equal with God (the Father.)” You cannot kill an attribute of a person, unless you kill the person from which the attribute comes.
It is further supported by,
John 5:23, “All men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.” Also, Again Scriptures are speaking of two distinct persons.
If the Word was the Father’s attributes wrapped in flesh, we could say that God was attempted to deceive us.
John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one.”
Verse 31, “The Jews took up stones again to stone Him (Jesus.)” The Jews said to Jesus,
Verse 33, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man makest thyself God.”
The Jews understood who Jesus was, and what He was saying.
Verse 36, “Say ye of Him (Jesus,) whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou (Jesus) blasphemes; because I said, I am the Son of God?”
In the above verses, the phrase, “Son of God,” was clearly understood by the Jewish authority as meaning, “God,” or equal with God.”
Christ has a fourfold right to this title, “Son of God.”
By generation, Luke 1:35, “that holy thing (Jesus) which shall be born of thee (Mary) shall be called the Son of God.”
By commission, as sent by the Father,
John 10:34-36, “Jesus said to the Jews, “Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods.” — Say ye of Him (Jesus,) whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?”
By resurrection Paul said,
Acts 13:32-34, “We declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, — as concerning that He (the Father) raised Him (Jesus) up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption (state of decay.)”
By possession, Jesus as heir of all, Hebrews 1:2-5, The Father, “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds: — For unto which of the angels said He (the Father) at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to Him a Father, and He (Jesus) shall be to me a Son?”
The Jewish authority perceived Jesus words, “I and my Father are one,” as a claim by Him to be “equal with the Father,” or God,” Himself.
His claim, John 14:28, “The Father is greater than I,” points to the authority the Father possesses in heaven.
Jesus was the Son of God, this being His true, right and equitable Divine nature. He was begotten of the Father before the worlds were.
“Only Begotton,” means He is like no other, one of His kind. The French Bible reads, “His unique Son.”
Psalms 2:7, Is spoken by king David on his coronation day, “Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” This is O.T. It points to the eternal generation of Jesus being. Paul repeats these words in Acts 13:30, in connection with the evidential (without beginning) nature of Christ’s resurrection. Again repeated in Hebrews 1:5, 5:5. Jesus Sonship to the Father in heaven is referred to at His baptism, on the Mt. of transfiguration and in His public teaching.
The expression, “This day have I begotten thee,” is a figurative expression meaning “on this occasion I reveal and declare thy Sonship.”
My question to you, If Jesus was only and attribute of the Father, beside the covering of flesh, did He have a soul and spirit like all men? Attributes do not have a soul or spirit.
One further comment concerning the Holy Spirit. You say the Holy Spirit is a power force, an attribute of the Father. Then explain the following verse.
John 16:13, Jesus said, “Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of himself.” Now I ask you, if the Holy Spirit was a power force an attribute of the Father, why would He not speak of Himself? Who else would He speak of? Because He is a separate entity (person) the verse makes sense.
Examine the above closely, your eternity may depend on your receiving this truth. Jesus Christ our Saviour, the teaching of the Holy Spirit, all to the glory of the Father in heaven.
Phillip Laspino www.seekfirstwisdom.com